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To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

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I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

-SoulRiser

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Why bribery doesn't motivate in school (warning- long)
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dreamer... Offline
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Post: #1
Why bribery doesn't motivate in school (warning- long)

In my attempts to motivate myself to do schoolwork, I've been trying to bribe myself-promising that if I get good grades, I can buy certain things for myself. But I've realized it's a faulty idea. Say, for example, I can buy myself a new video game if I get a B in math and history. Now that video game must be fairly important to me, since I'm using it as a motivator.

If I don't make a B in math and history, then I won't have the pleasure of enjoying the game. I'm essentially telling myself that without good grades, I don't deserve that game. That I don't deserve to have fun. That my grades have the power to make me worthless. I know it's a bit of an overstatement, but these are the implications of my attempt at bribery.

What I'm telling myself is that poor grades should deny me the right to have a good time. Only the grades matter- not my character, not my other accomplishments, not my good and bad deeds outside of school. The grades can almost strip me of my humanity-if I let them. But I'm not going to let them.

If you've read John Gatto's Dumbing Us Down, you'll probably remember his "7 Lesson Schoolteacher." One of those lessons, you may recall, was "provisional self-esteem." School teaches you to base your self-confidence solely on your grades. How you feel about yourself depends upon whether or not you gain the teacher's approval. This kind of thinking, this "provisional self esteem," is extremely destructive, and dangerous. It destroys students' individuality, making them dependent on others for self-confidence.

And unfortunately enough, bribery is a core part of the school system. If you obey your teacher, you'll get a good grade. Your parents will be happy with you. You'll get into college. You'll succeed in life. But since when have grades become the only measure of a person's success?

Bribery makes an ineffective motivator because it places academic performance above students' happiness and freedom. It promotes blind obedience, silently eroding students' ability to think for themselves. In addition, bribery promotes a very narrow-minded view of "success," ignoring the myriad of ways in which one can be successful without school.

If you want that video game, just go out and buy it, no matter what grades you end up with. You deserve it.
06-08-2008 03:51 AM
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liq3 Offline
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Post: #2
Re: Why bribery doesn't motivate in school (warning- long)

Yah, I agree with all that. It's the same reason doing stuff like "Kids, if you eat your vegetables you'll get desert." Desert becomes a forbidden fruit, it also gains more value then it is really worth, since they have to do something they don't like to get it. Not to mention that if they still have that attitude when they are cooking for themselves, they are likely to eat a lot of junk food, never learning the importance of vegetables and that they actually can taste good.

Epic win book.
Personal Development for Smart People.
06-08-2008 04:16 AM
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Michio-kun Offline
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Post: #3
Re: Why bribery doesn't motivate in school (warning- long)

Bribery itself confuses a child's values. While a parent may be well-intentioned in playing the "if you do this, you'll get this" game, the child learns to not care about the intrinsic value of vegetables or learning, but places way too much value on banalities.

Not their fault.

To a mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. - Chuang-tzu
The quieter you become, the more you can hear. - Baba Ram Dass
The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in one dewdrop on the grass. - Dogen
Great Faith. Great Doubt. Great Effort. - The three qualities necessary for training. - Zen saying
Possessing much knowledge is like having a thousand foot fishing line with a hook, but the fish is always an inch beyond the hook. - Zen saying
06-08-2008 09:24 AM
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Puchiko Offline
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Post: #4
Re: Why bribery doesn't motivate in school (warning- long)

My main problem with treats and rewards is that while it *might* work short term, it is very near-sighted.

People should be able to do necessary things (and by that I don't mean school-work) without the promise of an instant reward. Sometimes the reward will be non-material (a feeling of accomplishment, the happiness of someone you helped, an inner feeling you have done what was right), sometimes the reward will take longer to arrive, and sometimes, we will, despite our efforts, not succeed.

We won't have a parent with a sticker-sheet and wallet in his hand forever, we will have to be able to motivate ourselves, to do what *we* want to.

To put it simply: It's important to have self-discipline. And an instant-reward-for-obeying-a-pointless-command system doesn't teach self-discipline.

Don't take life so seriously, it isn't permanent.
06-23-2008 07:19 AM
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thewake Offline
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Post: #5
Re: Why bribery doesn't motivate in school (warning- long)

Reading this makes me think how lucky I was to have found this site.
I'd still be in the messed up system of bribes and rewards for the long haul. Of course I'm still in school, but it's summer and you don't think about school in summer even though it always looms over you day by day on the horizon.
I can't go back. The bribes are just part of the ever growing problem.

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06-23-2008 09:50 PM
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Will Offline
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Post: #6
Re: Why bribery doesn't motivate in school (warning- long)

Fun anecdote:

I once asked my father to bribe me by removing my allowance if I didn't finish my weekend homework before Sunday and raising it ever so slightly if I did because I was worried it would get to the point where I wouldn't be able to finish it on Monday. He said that this was stupid and fake and that he wouldn't do it. When I was no longer a straight A student and when I no longer cared so much about money, he asked whether he could bribe me to get As on my finals. He said he'd pay $100 per final, and I told him that I didn't think that would be enough to help.

One of the problems with rewards like this that students get from their parents or themselves is that they are fake, but they're also bad because you end up working for the reward, which reduces your creativity and, more importantly, fun. If you're allowed to do work you want to do, you don't need the reward. Read some of Alfie Kohn's articles about rewards/punishments and competition.
06-27-2008 11:14 PM
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